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hannah

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Reply with quote  #21 
You probably know my views about skin permeability, which I have discussed many times. In short, I am sure that everything we apply to our skin will penetrate the skin.

We suggest the use of 3% magnesium ascorbyl phosphate.
tom

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Reply with quote  #22 
Thanks a lot for your answer Hannah.



Regarding the pH what is your advice ? distilled water is fine ?

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hannah

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Reply with quote  #23 
Tom,

Skin anatomy and biochemistry are complicated subjects.  Interpretation of published articles in scientific journals is a tough job. From your posts, my impression is that you are not equipped to make decisions on formulations. 

Facts are available on the internet, by the million, but you still need knowledge and expertise to interpret those facts and assess quality of information.

A person who does not know, but thinks he does, is dangerous. This is why I ban some people from posting. I don't allow wrong statements to stay in our forum for long.





mgrish

peggissue
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Reply with quote  #24 
Hi,

I was wondering what your thoughts were on the CSI C Serum. It was mentioned at the beginning of the post, but unlike the other brands nothing was said about it. I'll be switching to yours, but in the mean time I have 2 unopened bottles of this stuff.

Thanks!!!

CSI C+12% Youth Serum
Ingredients: Butylene glycol, L-Ascorbic Acid

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davea0511

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Reply with quote  #25 
Wow. The first post in this thread is probably one of the best short introductions on vitamin C in skin care that I've ever read.  Well done!

I know MAP or Ascorbyl Palmitate is preferred in the industry because of shelf life (and of course pH neutral, and I have sensitive skin), but relatively speaking aren't the elemental-base ascorbate molecules (Na or Mg or K salts) considerably smaller and more penetrating? Also I read a study that showed that Ascorbyl Palmitate increased sun damage if worn in the sun, which made me wonder about MAP too and whether it has been tested. I spend a lot of time outdoors.

My skin loves it if I let sodium ascorbate crystals soak in before a quick final rinse.  In powder form the ascorbate seems to stay white until I use them all up so I don't think their loosing any efficacy over time.  Is there any advantage to using the acidic crystals instead, to which I'm sensitive?  

Here's what I was wondering ... if you dissolved an elemental-base (Na, K, or Mg) ascorbate in deoxygenated water and topped it off with N2, in a dark bottle ... wouldn't it stay reduced until application? Especially if in a container that didn't let air back in? That's how the intravenous pH neutral vitamin C solutions are stored.

hannah

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Reply with quote  #26 
You have to be careful with scientific publications. Science is a work in progress and the (old) paper on ascorbyl palmitate and sun damage has been refuted a while ago. It happens all the time.

Are you actually using sodium ascorbate? That is unusual. We use ascorbic acid crystals. Less acidic sodium ascorbate solutions get oxidized much faster.

It is not practical (at all) to bubble nitrogen into an ascorbic acid solution when it comes to products used in skin care. At the first opening of the product you would get air in. Keeping the pH of the solution low is more practical and less expensive.

People who use ascorbic acid solutions at high concentration do that because they like to get the exfoliation. For antioxidant power you don't need ascorbic acid in high concentrations and, in any case, it is better to use a mix of different antioxidants. As for collagen synthesis, you need really low concentrations of any chemical with vitamin C activity, and magnesium ascorbyl phosphate is stable and neutral.

davea0511

peggissue
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Reply with quote  #27 
I'm sure glad I asked.  I had no idea that had been refuted.

Yeah, I've been putting the sodium ascorbate powder right on my wet skin, let it kind of dry, then rinse it off.  Takes a couple minutes. Feels really good afterwards and seems to look healthier when I do that (vs skipping the sodium ascorbate step).  Do you think it's oxidizing in my skin?
hannah

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Reply with quote  #28 
I am not a fan of sodium. It is interesting that while magnesium ascorbyl phosphate is a good vitamin C, sodium ascorbyl phosphate is not. The difference would be the sodium, which can be problematic at high concentrations.

Your ascorbate will be reduced when you apply it because it has not been in solution and exposed to oxygen. I think it will be OK.

But, really, you would be perfectly fine using MAP instead of sodium ascorbate. You get some magnesium (great) instead of sodium (not great), it is stable and has great vitamin C activity.

Does this make sense?
davea0511

peggissue
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Reply with quote  #29 
Absolutely.  Very enlightening.  Thanks!  MAP it is.
hannah

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Reply with quote  #30 
...and please take into account my ideas about what sensitive skin is. I am sure they are there somewhere (newsletter, blog, etc.).
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